Advice from the H

Level 8 User Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 278

I don't know much about black people!

Nor have I heard Rev. Jolly, but I have heard A. L. Goholic speak from personal experiences on a number of issues...

Edit: I have also heard Mr I. R. Armie, who lost his hands when a bomb he was making blew up in front of him.

Marriage:

To quote from the site:

"When Christians marry non-Christians, it negates the spiritual (not the physical) oneness in marriage, resulting in negative consequences for the couple and their children."

I didn't spot the place where it said it was bad for the world or morally wrong. That is a bit much.

However, speaking from experience (no I have not been married!), I would agree with the quote above.
I entered into a relationship with a girl whom I thought was a Christian, she even told me she was.
Yes, I can confirm that does most definitely does have spiritual negative consequences, as it is far easier for both people to focus on keeping each other happy, than one to follow God's way and the other not.
She did become a Christian eventually, but I fell a long way spiritually in the mean time.
Yes, it may seem worth it if she becomes a Christian as a result. But there is no denying that I was with her after I found out she wasn't a Christian. This is something that I will never do again.
I learnt the hard way.

I chose that site because the magazine has a good reputation. I am not familiar with itâ€™s contents, so in that sense it is a bit of a risk giving it as a source. If there is anything specific that people want to bounce off me, Iâ€™ll do my best to answer.

Site Subscriber Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 2281

I think religion has a lot to answer for in today's modern political climate.

This whole Terror era has been largely religious in origin, and the world today is largely controlled by money and religion.

Without doing any in-depth research, the terror bombings of 7/7 and 9/11 were masterminded by a few select influential individuals who justified it to their narrow-minded 'followers' as Holy Jihad; for the benefit of their religion.

The fact that people are willing to end their own lives for a cause demonstrates true belief; regardless of whether that belief or cause has any supernatural origins or is the clever artistry of a selfish individual.

As a scientist (biochemist) I rarely turn to religion for answers, mainly because research finds logical, rational explanations for the things we observe that were once thought to be the actions of God.

Take for example the Neanderthal, I was taught that Neanderthal thought Solar and Lunar eclipses were acts of God to show his anger, and promptly made a sacrifice in order to appease this 'God'.

Of course science has now demonstrated that eclipses are nothing more than a chance alignment between Earth, the Sun and the Moon and it is a process that is now so well understood that they can predicted years in advance.

This isn't the only case where science has disproved religion, there are many more cases if you look for them. Religion has always been used to explain the things that we have no logical or scentific explanation for.

Of course, there are things even science will be unable to prove (Origin of the Universe for example) so while devout religious following may dwindle, religion will always have a minor existence in some form.

Again, speaking as a scientist if I want to quickly analyse religion and it's validity I look to the other living things on this planet. Our closest genetic relatives - chimpanzees - do not follow any organised religion, and this evident throughout the whole spectrum of life.

What does this tell you? It tells me that the whole concept of religion and the various divisions, faiths and followings are all human in 'origin'. Take Mormonism - founded by a single man Joseph Smith, who supposedly unearthed some Golden plates in Vermont in 1827 and then proceeded to translate them into his version of a bible (bearing in mind he sat behind a curtain writing it and wouldn't let anyone see what he was writing nor the Golden plates from which he was translating. Sounds a bit far fetched to me.

And even now, nearly 200 years on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints still has a strong following in America.

Funnily enough I've just done a quick Google search and apparently the motivation Smith had to find these plates came from a personal visit from God, who told him that religions were:

"all wrong ... all their creeds were an abomination in His sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt" (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19).

So have I got this right? Smith founders a new religion based on some apparent visit he has had from the leader of another?

I agree with a lot of what JB says, religion is used as an excuse, a reason, a way of life for so many which I find laughable since I am of the opinion that religion is a thing that only humans follow. Also, the fact that so many religions with so called 'one-true all powerful' beings exist is enough to convince me that

In the case of Mormonism, it is a fairly 'recent' religion and is perhaps more vulnerable to claims of fraud. However faiths like Christianity, and Islam have roots set thousands of years in the past and thus are more difficult to dispute the origins of since there will never be enough written, testimonial, factual evidence to convincingly supplant them from society.

I think religion, in the hands of the wrong people and when preached to weak-minded individuals has the potential to wreak havoc with the world balance.

I also think the world needs moderation and balance to get by. Eventually the world will become with so saturated with religious motivation that something on a stellar global scale will occur that will shift attitudes and opinions, possibly something along the lines of a WW3. Whether this will be in our lifetimes or those of our grandchildren I couldn't tell you.

Of course, it depends what you consider 'right' and 'wrong' with the world in the first place. The view I expressed in the last paragraph only applies if you envision the world as a place where millions of people can live in relative harmony with each other with minimal loss of life. The alternative to this view is if you place your own self-preservation and quality of life above all other things and have no disregard for the wellbeing others.

As a scientist this could well be my view, since through my University studies it's always been demonstrated that organisms are put on this planet to ensure their own genetic lineages are preserved and enriched in our progeny. Having consideration for the wellbeing of others, as noble as it may sounds, confers no survival advantage whatsoever, if anything this kind of altruistic attitude is actually detrimental to ensuring one's own survival - and funnily enough this is just a reworded version of what Chris put in his opening post if read into it deeply enough!

What I'm saying is, I personally don't believe in a religion, I believe in science. (Which you could argue is a religion of it's own I suppose) All I know is that science is founded on fact, founded on quantified reproducible data. That for me that is more than enough to make it a 'guide' to live my life by. I have no belief nor any need to believe in any kind of 'ethereal being' for reassurance in things I cannot rationalise or explain.

I have nothing against anyone who believes in any kind of religion however. I just think it's downright absurd to place any 'faith' I have in something that in my mind has largely been concocted in the minds of power and/or money hungry individuals of the past and present.

Religion seems to me very much like a sheep mentality. Like Neal says, there are geographic boundaries to religion. If we had free-will and the power to decide for ourselves than you'd find an even balance of religions everywhere you go.

That's my 10 cents-worth anyway.

Level 8 User Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 278

Quote:

This whole Terror era has been largely religious in origin, and the world today is largely controlled by money and religion.

Indeed. Also I might add that this is prophesied in the end times, that Religion and the Financial/Commercial world will have a very close relationship. Religion being supported by the commerce, and the two being used to control the world.

Quote:

Without doing any in-depth research, the terror bombings of 7/7 and 9/11 were masterminded by a few select influential individuals who justified it to their narrow-minded 'followers' as Holy Jihad; for the benefit of their religion.

The fact that people are willing to end their own lives for a cause demonstrates true belief; regardless of whether that belief or cause has any supernatural origins or is the clever artistry of a selfish individual.

The extent to which their religion encourages them channel their hatred toward others, and rewards them for doing so is startling. As is the deep rooted ness of their beliefs, which they are willing to commit suicide for.

If people here believed that there were many virgins waiting for them when they blew themselves up, Iâ€™m sure it would be quite a common occurnace. After all itâ€™s a bit of motivation for the more testosterone charged individuals, and appaent relief from the strife of life here.

Quote:

As a scientist (biochemist) I rarely turn to religion for answers, mainly because research finds logical, rational explanations for the things we observe that were once thought to be the actions of God.

Take for example the Neanderthal, I was taught that Neanderthal thought Solar and Lunar eclipses were acts of God to show his anger, and promptly made a sacrifice in order to appease this 'God'.

Of course science has now demonstrated that eclipses are nothing more than a chance alignment between Earth, the Sun and the Moon and it is a process that is now so well understood that they can predicted years in advance.

This isn't the only case where science has disproved religion, there are many more cases if you look for them.

That is a case where science has disproved fable.

Assuming that we are talking about â€˜Neanderthal manâ€™, how can you know the beliefs of a race that apparently existed around 230,000 to 29,000 years ago when all you have got are skelatons?
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

Quote:

Religion has always been used to explain the things that we have no logical or scentific explanation for.

Religion existed before science, science attempts to explain (and replicate) what was created by God.

Quote:

Of course, there are things even science will be unable to prove (Origin of the Universe for example) so while devout religious following may dwindle, religion will always have a minor existence in some form.

Surely the origin of the universe is nothing short of impossible to explain without religion. And this will always be the case, either due to lack of evidence or because it is fundamentally beyond human understandingâ€¦

Quote:

Again, speaking as a scientist if I want to quickly analyse religion and it's validity I look to the other living things on this planet. Our closest genetic relatives - chimpanzees - do not follow any organised religion, and this evident throughout the whole spectrum of life.

What does this tell you? It tells me that the whole concept of religion and the various divisions, faiths and followings are all human in 'origin'.

It tells you that they are human in 'application' (Don't be jumping to conclusions Mr Scientist!!!).

The Bible teaches that humans are the only life that has a soul. How to prove this to you, I donâ€™t knowâ€¦ But it would explain why religion is exclusively in the human domain.
Checking to see if e.g. a cat has a religion is not a reflection of how valid a religion is.
Establishing that religion is in the human domain is also not a reflection of how valid a religion is either.

It also does not establish itâ€™s origin. To my mind this can only be validated, by comparing what is written as the source of a religion to what it predicts about events and facts. I.e. prophecy.
This is one of the few things that cannot be faked.

As I said earlier I would also steer clear of religions that seek for people to control other people, and in addition any that promote the loss of life, to further its cause.

This criteria is enough to sort the sheep from the goats.

Quote:

Take Mormonism - founded by a single man Joseph Smith, who supposedly unearthed some Golden plates in Vermont in 1827 and then proceeded to translate them into his version of a bible (bearing in mind he sat behind a curtain writing it and wouldn't let anyone see what he was writing nor the Golden plates from which he was translating. Sounds a bit far fetched to me.

And even now, nearly 200 years on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints still has a strong following in America.

Funnily enough I've just done a quick Google search and apparently the motivation Smith had to find these plates came from a personal visit from God, who told him that religions were:

"all wrong ... all their creeds were an abomination in His sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt" (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19).

So have I got this right? Smith founders a new religion based on some apparent visit he has had from the leader of another?

Mormonism is a cult, as is Jehovahâ€™s Witness, stay well away from them.

Quote:

I agree with a lot of what JB says, religion is used as an excuse, a reason, a way of life for so many which I find laughable since I am of the opinion that religion is a thing that only humans follow.
Also, the fact that so many religions with so called 'one-true all powerful' beings exist is enough to convince me that

Iâ€™m not quite sure what point youâ€™re teasing out here. Do you expect other species to follow religion?

Quote:

In the case of Mormonism, it is a fairly 'recent' religion and is perhaps more vulnerable to claims of fraud. However faiths like Christianity, and Islam have roots set thousands of years in the past and thus are more difficult to dispute the origins of since there will never be enough written, testimonial, factual evidence to convincingly supplant them from society.

It would be an idea to see if it was possible validate them by â€˜proof by inductionâ€™ rather than just noting the there is insufficient evidence for a â€˜proof by contradictionâ€™.

Quote:

I think religion, in the hands of the wrong people and when preached to weak-minded individuals has the potential to wreak havoc with the world balance.

Depends which religion it is. Certainly there are some out there which do this, just read the papers.

Quote:

As a scientist this could well be my view, since through my University studies it's always been demonstrated that organisms are put on this planet to ensure their own genetic lineages are preserved and enriched in our progeny. Having consideration for the wellbeing of others, as noble as it may sounds, confers no survival advantage whatsoever, if anything this kind of altruistic attitude is actually detrimental to ensuring one's own survival.

Perhaps this is some â€˜evidenceâ€™ of the difference that having a soul makes?

Quote:

I have no belief nor any need to believe in any kind of 'ethereal being' for reassurance in things I cannot rationalise or explain.

Then ignorance is in place rather than belief. If science cannot fill the gap to explain of the origin of the universe, or what happens after people die, etc. Then the only alternative I can think of is that these things are put on the â€˜to-do listâ€™ of science, for science to explain, (as if it were possible) and subsequently ignored until either the person forgets all about it, or joins the rest of the decaying flesh six feet under (which is fine by science as that is all science can â€˜proveâ€™ we are â€“ no more, no less).

Whoops! Maybe that was a bit direct, but I can see no other effective way of putting it.

Quote:

I have nothing against anyone who believes in any kind of religion however. I just think it's downright absurd to place any 'faith' I have in something that in my mind has largely been concocted in the minds of power and/or money hungry individuals of the past and present.

I agree.

Quote:

Religion seems to me very much like a sheep mentality. Like Neal says, there are geographic boundaries to religion. If we had free-will and the power to decide for ourselves than you'd find an even balance of religions everywhere you go.

It can be, and often is, sheep mentality, but you have to look toward the front of the flock to see if those sheep are following the Shepard, or are they just choosing their own way.
It is because of sheep mentality that we have religious boundaries, but we do have free-will and the power to decide, but do you ever notice that things and pressures get in the way, â€˜Iâ€™m too busyâ€™ or â€˜Itâ€™s not important enoughâ€™?

Quote:

That's my 10 cents-worth anyway.

Cheers Ben.

Site Subscriber Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 2281

Wow, things are getting deep here!

FCS Event Manager Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 3680

i belive he also called you ignorant Ben lol

Religion is as corrupt as politics, a lot of american christianity is run by ministers of $ and thats it.
They prey on the already mentioned sheep like attitude members of the public and convince them that God is the answer to all thier problems, but basicly shaft them out of thier money, lay thier hands on them for 2 minutes and hail mary, they are cured of thier cancer that 100 Doctors and medical science could not cure.

So yet again religion or a belief in it causes suffering (yes i know they are fake ministers etc but they are using religion as a means to line thier own pockets)

I much prefer to belive in the Big Bang theory of how this universe was created, it is more plausible than some omipotent being creating us.
If God created the earth & then Adam & Eve, what about the dinosaurs?
no mention of them anywhere in the bible?
Thats fact for you, we have proof of thier existance because thanks to scientists and the modern age we can study the past and see how those creatures lived and evolved, leading to where we are today.
I dont see them managing to do the same with God.

Also, do you have any concept of how large our universe is, just how many galaxies and constellations , planets and other forms of intelligent life there has to be out there?
Did God create all of this too?
He must have been one hell of a busy boy, maybe this is why he can let innocent kids get abused daily and suffer needlessly?
How could God for example let that 3 month old baby suffer as much as he did up in newcastle?
His parents abused him almost from the moment of his birth, he died because his 'father' shook him around like a rag doll, held the poor kids head to the bars of an electric fire which was on full and from multiple fractures!
How is that right, how is that just? how can God allow that?
We are born already sinners? is that enough justification to putting a kid thru what that baby went thru?

oooo sorry Mrs Smith, i killed your daughter and raped her because i was born a sinner so according to God thats fine. Bullshit!

As i have stated earlier in this post, Religion is corrupt, it is used as an excuse to rob ppl, it is used as an excuse to manipulate ppl, it has killed more ppl than anything else.
The nuclear bomb was created by scientists, yes, as a deterrent.
How many times has one auctually been used to kill ppl?
Not as often as religion has been used to kill ppl.
Some religions take it to such extremes that life saving operations can not be carried out because it offends a religion.
Women are subjected to a life of slavery in some countries because of religion.

and on the day i die and if it turns out that there is a God after all, i'd tell him to shove his pearly gates up his pompus overinflated arse!

Level 8 User Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 278

Quote:

i belive he also called you ignorant Ben lol

LOL!
Oh yes he did!
Oh no he didnâ€™t!

Quote:

Religion is as corrupt as politics, a lot of american christianity is run by ministers of $ and thats it.
They prey on the already mentioned sheep like attitude members of the public and convince them that God is the answer to all thier problems, but basicly shaft them out of thier money, lay thier hands on them for 2 minutes and hail mary, they are cured of thier cancer that 100 Doctors and medical science could not cure.

So yet again religion or a belief in it causes suffering (yes i know they are fake ministers etc but they are using religion as a means to line thier own pockets)

In reply to that I would ask is question â€“ Does religion itself cause suffering or is it being (mis)used as a tool by humans to cause suffering to others?

Quote:

I much prefer to belive in the Big Bang theory of how this universe was created, it is more plausible than some omipotent being creating us.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i3/big_bang.asp

Quote:

If God created the earth & then Adam & Eve, what about the dinosaurs?
no mention of them anywhere in the bible?

â€œInterestingly, the word â€˜dragonâ€™ is used a number of times in the Old Testament. In most instances, the word dinosaur could substitute for dragon and it would fit very nicely. Creation scientists believe that dinosaurs were called dragons before the word dinosaur was invented in the 1800s."

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.asp

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dinosaurs.asp

Quote:

Thats fact for you, we have proof of thier existance because thanks to scientists and the modern age we can study the past and see how those creatures lived and evolved, leading to where we are today.
I dont see them managing to do the same with God.

Thanks to Moses, Daniel, Isaiah, David, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John etc. we can study the past and see how the world was created and progressed, through the present age, leading into the future. (End Times, The Great Tribulation, Armageddon, The Great White Throne Judgement, and the New Heaven and New Earth).
I donâ€™t see them managing to do the same with anything.

Sorry, I couldnâ€™t resist that, but it does illustrate a point quite well.

Quote:

Also, do you have any concept of how large our universe is, just how many galaxies and constellations , planets and other forms of intelligent life there has to be out there?
Did God create all of this too?

Intelligent life? Well thatâ€™s another subject. God is the only form of Intelligent life I know to be out there. However, I would say that just because other forms of life are not mentioned, does not mean that there arenâ€™t any.
Yes.

Quote:

He must have been one hell of a busy boy, maybe this is why he can let innocent kids get abused daily and suffer needlessly?
How could God for example let that 3 month old baby suffer as much as he did up in newcastle?
His parents abused him almost from the moment of his birth, he died because his 'father' shook him around like a rag doll, held the poor kids head to the bars of an electric fire which was on full and from multiple fractures!
How is that right, how is that just? how can God allow that?
We are born already sinners? is that enough justification to putting a kid thru what that baby went thru?
oooo sorry Mrs Smith, i killed your daughter and raped her because i was born a sinner so according to God thats fine. Bullshit!

This is a very difficult question to answer, but Iâ€™ll do my best:

Before Adam & Eve sinned, there was no suffering, there was no death, no pain, no sorrow, no abuse. The ground was not cursed, so it was fertile and weeds/nettles/thistles did not grow in it. (Scotland would have to choose a new â€˜flowerâ€™ then).

You get the picture.

When Adam & Eve had rejected Godâ€™s command to not eat of the tree, there was what the Bible calls the Fall. A number of things happened:

The ground was cursed.
Death entered in to the world. As this was one of their punishments for disobeying God.
They were cast out of the garden.
Plus some other implications.

I found this on the website, rather than paraphrase it, Iâ€™ll quote:

â€œWhen Adam rebelled against God, in effect he was saying that he wanted life without God.
God had to judge Adamâ€™s sin with death. He had already warned Adam that if he sinned, he would â€˜surely die.â€™ After Adamâ€™s Fall, he and all his descendants forfeited the right to live. After all, God is the author of life. Death is the natural penalty of choosing life without God, the giver of life. Also, because the Lord is holy and just, there had to be a penalty for rebellion.â€

â€œThe Bible makes it clear that death is the penalty for our sin, not just the sin of Adam. If you accept the Bibleâ€™s account of history, then our sinsâ€”not just the sins of â€˜the other guyâ€™â€”are responsible for all the death and suffering in the world! In other words, it is really our fault that the world is the way it is. No-one is really â€˜innocent.â€™â€

â€œAt the same time that God judged sin with death, He withdrew some of His sustaining power. Romans 8:22 tells us that the whole of creation is groaning and travailing in pain. Everything is running down because of sin. God has given us a taste of life without Himâ€”a world full of violence, death, suffering and disease. If God withdrew all of His sustaining power, the creation would cease to exist. Colossians 1:16â€“17 tells us that all things are held together, right now, by the power of the Creator, the Lord Jesus Christ. However, in one sense He is not holding it together perfectly, as He is deliberately letting things fall apart to give us a taste of what life is like without God. In other words, God is allowing us to experience what we wantedâ€”life without Godâ€

You must realise, that God owes us nothing. We are wretched is his eyes, just like the â€˜Chav scumâ€™ that we hear about so much. Often we feel like getting revenge for something that they did to us, our car, or our mates etc.

When we see them fighting each other, who gives a stuff? They are only Chavs, let them get on with it, if weâ€™re lucky, maybe the gene pool will be less polluted when they finish.

If one of them did something good, we would look upon it as a worthless gesture, because of who they are. So a Chav can never obtain any favour though things that he does. Once a Chav, always a Chav.

And the next generation of Chavs? Well they only get worse, if that can be possible.

Now put yourself in the position of the Chav, and the other party is the e.g. The King of England/Scotland/Wales/NI.

You see my point.

We are lucky God doesnâ€™t just destroy us all. We deserve it.

However He loves us and sent His Son to die for us, to forgive our sins, if only we want forgiveness and believe that He did it for us.

So the King is reaching out, in love, meeting his subjects halfway (in fact, more than half way). If only they would come to Him, rather than trying to earn our way by polishing his alloys and washing his windscreen at the traffic lightsâ€¦

Quote:

As i have stated earlier in this post, Religion is corrupt, it is used as an excuse to rob ppl, it is used as an excuse to manipulate ppl, it has killed more ppl than anything else.

it is MISused as an excuse to rob ppl, it is MISused as an excuse to manipulate ppl,

For more info on death and suffering see: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/death_suffering.asp

Quote:

The nuclear bomb was created by scientists, yes, as a deterrent.
How many times has one auctually been used to kill ppl?

The Bible mentions the flesh melting from peoples bodies, and blood running up to the level of the horses bit. So I dare say that the nuclear bomb is the culprit, and people that live in the End Times will get to witness it.

Quote:

Not as often as religion has been used to kill ppl.
Some religions take it to such extremes that life saving operations can not be carried out because it offends a religion.

Cue the Jehovah Witnesses - No blood transfusions permitted.

Quote:

Women are subjected to a life of slavery in some countries because of religion.

The Bible teaches that men and women are equal. However the woman should submit to the mans authority. Not as a slave, but as the willing submission of an equal.

Quote:

and on the day i die and if it turns out that there is a God after all, i'd tell him to shove his pearly gates up his pompus overinflated arse!

Not possible, as it will be in judgement - â€œevery mouth will be stopped and all the world will become guilty before Godâ€. The 'evidence' is taken from a record of what you did in your life, most importantly, what you did with his offer. The opportunity to change the verdict, and ultimately your destiny, is before that day.