Lumpy idle...now overheating?

Level 5 User Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 110

I have had problems with the rapidly-decreasing performance of the engine in my 1.4 clio. First it went lumpy and I could hear it only running on three cyclinders so checked out the plugs (which were due for renewal anyway) and they were soot black. Changed them and the car ran fine for about 100 miles or so, and then the random lumpiness started again (not accosiated with temperature). It gradually became more and more frequuent until it eventually only ever ran on 3 cyl. again. I was planning on replacing everything in the ignition chain (HT, dizzy, rotar arm), but driving it this morning I looked at the temp guage and it was near enough at the top! I am immediately thinking head gasket, but still a bit stumped as to why the fresh plugs seemed to sort it out for a short time?

Any expert advice MUCH appreciated,

Steve

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

I think theres more than 1 issue here which is why the plugs are affecting it.

Its overfueling, thats plain and simple to see, so I would suggest a change of the CTS. This will account for low performance and also high fuel consumption if you have this problem. On a 1.4 you should be getting 100 miles to a tenner easily.

As for the temp issue. I assume you have checked the coolant level and topped it up? If not top it up, bleed it as best you can and then keep and eye on it.

Change the leads and so on like you were planning to.

See what happens.

Level 5 User Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 110

generally the fuel comsumption is very good, as you suggested. But recently, 63 miles / tenner.

I will change the sensor as you suggested, thanks.

For the coolant issue - the car has always swallowed coolant. Ive had it for about 3 years and it started doing it maybe 6months down the line - I have repeatedly bled the system, flushed it, checked pipes etc. and just couldn't get to the bottom of it. I do keep an eye on it and top it up every couple of weeks. I know this isn't ideal as I should really sort it out, and did spend ages a couple of months ago trawling forums getting loads of infor about all the different places it could escape, but I have so much work on at the moment I can't find the time to do this!

Thanks Chris,

Steve

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

which cylinder is it thats not firing?

Might be a headgasket leak into the cylinder but with these things is normally worse when it heats up.

Level 5 User Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 110

how do you test for it? I remember the old trick of unplugging each HT at the plug end with a set of insulating pliers and then placing near the engine to see if you could see the spark jumping, but I have had bad experiences when it comes to sparks and getting fried so am a bit wary of this!

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

well unplug 1 lead with the engine off and start it, do this for each and you will find out.

Level 5 User Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 110

will do, thanks.

Level 5 User Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 110

I have just tested each HT lead by removing each one in turn, and it made no difference to the (shite) performance of the engine doing so. It even sounded the same on 2 HT leads! I drove it home from work shortly before doing this, and it overheated to near enough the top of the guage, and although there is no "cream" in the oil cap, i think it smells of fuel.

Is it me, or is this looking certainly like a head?

and if it is, I will do the cambelt at the same time. I have done a head bofre on my old micra but need to know, apart from the gasket, do i need anything else? do the head bolts have to be renewed?

thanks,

steve

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

right so removing the ht leads made no difference. So its got more than 1 cyl down?

Were the 2 leads ytou had off on matching cylinders? 1 and 2, 2 and 3 or 3 and 4? If so that suggests the gaskets gone between cylinders.

Sounds deffo liek the headgaskets gone.

Depending on how lucky you are the head may need skimmed due to running and nearly overheating.

Get a head gasket set, I get them for 25 quid from my factors.

You can reuse the headbolts but with it being runnign so hot I woudl be tempted to renew them.

Level 5 User Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 110

it was on cyl 1+2 that it made no difference when both were out, although it also made no difference on 2 + 4. (assuming cyl. 1 is timing end).

I will check trueness when it's off.

just lookign over the haynes manual now, never taken off a head on an engine with wet liners before- is it tricky or are Haynes being over cautious as ever?

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

over cautious.

Crack all the bolts off but leave the front left corner and pull the head, breaks the seal but tbh I have yet to pull a liner out when the heads come off!

Level 5 User Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 110

thanks Chris. any other tricky things to watch out for or is it pretty much as stated in the Haynes (not that you prob read it Wink

)

Steve

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

nah its easy enough.

You need to support the engine as you need to remove the mount on the drivers side.

I would be tempted to change the tensioner along with the water pump when doing the cambelt.

Level 5 User Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 110

what even on an engine with 95k on it?

(let me guess: ESPECIALLY on an engine with 95k on it.)

just worried about the cost with regard to its age!

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

well have a fondle of the pulleys, if they are loose or rattle replace them

Level 5 User Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 110

just out of curiousity, how long does it take you to change a head gasket?

kinda like a benchmark Wink

Level 5 User Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 110

also, would be great if you could give me your opinion on whether all the haynes steps are necessary (as they are famed for overkill in places)

to remove timing belt:

remove bonnet
remove wheel arch plastic cover (drill out rivets? can you easily buy new ones to replace?)
unbolt timing cover bracket
unbolt engine mounting lower bracket from body
remove alternator drivebelt
unscrew crankshaft pulley bolt (going to bloody hard if i remember the last time i did this. can you put gearbox in reverse to help or is that going to knacker the box?)
unbolt flywheel sensor
remove crankshaft pulley

etc.

also, would you reccomend leaving the inlet / exhaust manifolds connected to the head, or remove them?

finally could anyone offer any tips on making sure i don't spend hours on certain parts e.g. timing belt, either removing or refitting? really dont want this to take much longer than it needs to!

one thing i remember from doing this job on my old car was that when i refitted a new belt, it wouldn't exactly line up (i.e. teeth would be half a notch out from matching at both wheels exactly). i got a family mechanic to help out with this i think but can't remember what he said. is this common?

i may ask questions during doing this if i get stuck, thanks for the advice so far, lots o questions i know Embarassed

!

cheers,

steve

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

gasket change, well on Georges it took me about a week, but I did have the head waway and ported it.

Straight swap a few hours.

No need to remove the bonnet, I can see how it would help but I am tall so can reach in no bother. Also they tend to shear there studs so if you try and remove it you may need to source another bonnet!

They are held in by plastic clips and screws

cover off

mounting off after supporting the engine

alt belt off, also ps if fitted

pulley bolt, in gear with a foot on the brake and undo it, they are normally ok on the rens, another option is breaker bar on the bolt jammed against the ground and crank it ont he starter to loosen it

no need at all to remove the crank sensor

crank pulley that holds the alt/ps belt on will just fall off.

When thats done you should see the belt easily, 1st thing is to line up the timing marks on the bottom end and the crank, then when they are lined up loosen the 16mm tensioner pulley, the belt will then slide off easily.

Leave the manifolds attached to the head, when its off remove the inlet and clean it up and use the new gasket that comes with the headset, the exhaust, the studs normally snap so leve it alone. If hoever you can't get the downpipe away from the manifold then you will have to remove the manifold.

Its not a hard job.

as for the belt not lining up this is perfectly normal, the valve springs push against the cam lobes and make it turn back/forwards slightly. You should try to line up the pulleys on a quad cam V8 without the locking tools!

When the head is off do not turn the bottom end over unless you have clamped the liners in, the haynes shows a pic of this.

Level 5 User Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 110

cheers Chris, really appreciate the solid advice.

Level 5 User Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 110

Hey Chris, taken a bit of a twist this morning:

As I buggered a HT taking it out yesterday when testing, i replaced it this morning before starting it. As if by magic, the car ran fine. I filled up the coolant to the max, and ran it for 25 mins. It overheated slightly, but returned to normal when the wind was running through it. I did a compression test, and these are the results:

Cyl 1 . Cyl 2 . Cyl 3 . Cyl 4

140 ... 100 ... 70(75)..140

Also, the coolant I added had disappeared by this point. I have changed all the HT leads now, and the engine runs ok, but the compression test is worrying.

Someone has suggested using radweld to try and block it up, and even using a raw egg in the coolant!

I dont want to rip the head off if not needed, but could the HT replacement just be another temporary fix before it starts going again?

Level 5 User Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 110

ok now even more info. just left it running for a bout 15 mins, watching it and listening for sounds. The coolant again emptied about 3/4 litre, i refilled it and carried on watching and listening. I could hear a metallic rattling / squeaking in time with the engone rotation which i thought must be the alt / power steering belt or one of its bearings going. I then started to see steam rising from the timing cover end, especially a big puff after it has been revved and you release the throttle. I could also see a slight leak of some liquid from the timing cover near the power steering pump, and what looked like spraying from the same area. Never seen this before.

Am I right in now thinking that the water pump has gone, or is about to go? I can smell that hot coolant smell when the bonnet is open (from the steam probably).

So has the pump gone, cooked the engine and made the gasket onthe middle two pots go? Or someting else?

Seriously, thanks for all the help.