Advice from the H

Forum Moderator Joined: 18 Feb 2004 Posts: 7432

What really gets me about religious types is using quotes from the Bible/Quran/Torah etc. as proof of the book's own legitimacy. That is a complete logical absurdity.

Stephen wrote:

The Bible does not teach people to control people, (unlike many other religions) it does not have a great leader who is a human being, rather it is God himself. This is an interesting differnce, and something that should be noted when choosing between Hinhuism, Buddism, Islam, Bahi, etc.

Where does the Pope come in then? (assuming youâ€™re a Catholic here Stephen, forgive me if Iâ€™m mistaken)

And hey, letâ€™s not forget that Christianity lets you do all kinds of neat stuff that is forbidden in other religions! If I was choosing a religion, Christianity would be the one for me! Rolling Eyes

Stephen wrote:

Based on the assumption that the earth didn't always exist, if a god can create this, why can't he have control over what happens to us (if he wanted to)?

Stephen wrote:

God gives people a free rein to make their own choices, it's the people that cause cause the wars, it is greed for oil, power, land, whatever.

Spot the contradiction.

Stephen wrote:

How could cleverness be enough to correctly predict the future and to explain happenings on the earth thousands of years before they were confirmed by science?

Tell me, if you lived 2000 years ago, how would you explain Earthquakes? What about Tsunamis? Lightning storms? Theyâ€™d all be known to be the direct work of God, yes?

Stephen wrote:

I agree that it is because we are inclined to believe our parents made the right choice, (and their parents before them).
Also, no one has time, or likes thinking about it all, the Devil is an expert at introducing distractions and influencing us away from thinking about such things. Like lemmings I suppose.

So itâ€™s the Devilâ€™s fault that you donâ€™t make up your own mind about which religion is correct? How do you know the Devil (great trickster that he is) hasnâ€™t tricked you and all the other Christians into being a Christian, and one of the other religions is the right one?

â€œLemmingsâ€, please stop, the irony is killing me!

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

i once actually tried to read the bible, I stopped, it made me laugh at how on 1 page do this and the next it says do that and you'll be cast down!

As for the devil, from a laymans point of view, all he has to do is sit on his arse and not do anything and hes sorted. he doesnl;t need to trick anybody or anything.

Also from what i know theres Satan, Lucifer and Hades (hes the gatekeeper, hells bouncer).

Lucifer was the 1st to sin and thus be a fallen angel. He was the light giver.

Satan was the one who started the revolt against god and was thus cast down. he then later tempted eve with the fruit of knowledge (thats the free will). As always a woman fucked it all up! lol

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:00 am

ANSWERS TO ALL

ying and yang, there has to be a balance of everything, if there is good there is evil, it has to work that way but somewhere down the line some poor fuc*ers got all the bad luck and others got all the good!

If everything was peachy all the time we wouldnt learn right from wrong / good from bad

FCS Event Manager Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 3680

Chris H";p="85732 wrote:

Neo Stephen stated that we are all born sinful, so you can't say they are innocent.

that is only if you believe in God & Religion.

I don't so saying we are all born sinful is complete tripe!

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

lol fair enough, i beleive the same mate.

The kids don't ask to be born and when they are born they are all innocents - for a while

Level 8 User Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 278

Quote:

As for the atom bomb, nuclear bombs have in no way at all even come close to deatsh by natural disasters, disease, famine etc etc.

That was in response to "Religion is the single biggest killer of mankind ever! ".
Certainly natural disasters have claimed many many lives. Take the tsunami for example, there were 100's of thousands of people killed.

Frankly, I don't know. It does seem harsh and unfair. But who am I to advise God what to do.

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If there is a god and he made it all, what made him?

In the Bible it says that he is the beginning and the end (Alpha & Omega). He is God, he always existed and will always exist. "Before Adam, I am".

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go into it in as much detail as you like, it still does not stop innocents getting hurt or killed or suffering needlessly.

This is an attempt at an explanation, not an attempt to stop these things happening.

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and if there is a God and he lets kids get sexually abused, these are innocent kids who have not had the chance to do any sin themselves, get raped, abused, beaten and GOD lets that happen, then screw God.
He would be more evil than the Devil himself to allow that to happen!

One understanding is that yes, God allows 'bad' things to happen, however God does not cause them to happen.

Most 'bad' things which happen do so because God gave people freedom to choose what to do, we have free choices, we are not puppets on a string.

Quotation on the Tsunami which can be applied to other areas:

"In all honesty, I cannot explain why such a disaster happens. I realize that it is very difficult to understand how a loving God would allow this kind of tragedy. While I don't have clear answers to the question 'why,' I do have some thoughts that may be helpful. I think it is important to remember that we are human and as finite human beings, we have a finite understanding about the mind of God. We do our best to make sense of things, but with our human limitations, we cannot ever really know the grand picture of eternity. "

I don't know. It's a tough question.

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What really gets me about religious types is using quotes from the Bible/Quran/Torah etc. as proof of the book's own legitimacy. That is a complete logical absurdity.

Correct. That's why it is a good idea to establish the authority of the book based on something remarkable like prophesy, before using it as a source

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Where does the Pope come in then? (assuming youâ€™re a Catholic here Stephen, forgive me if Iâ€™m mistaken)

You are mistaken! lol! I'm sure the Pope could forgive you for that.
I don't know much about it, but I think that they believe that Paul was the first Pope. It has followed on from that.

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And hey, letâ€™s not forget that Christianity lets you do all kinds of neat stuff that is forbidden in other religions! If I was choosing a religion, Christianity would be the one for me!

Indeed, you can even go right off the rails and be forgiven.
But this should not be the basis of a choice.

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Spot the contradiction.

There isn't a contradiction. I'm saying that He has the power to control us, but for the most part chooses not to.

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Tell me, if you lived 2000 years ago, how would you explain Earthquakes? What about Tsunamis? Lightning storms? Theyâ€™d all be known to be the direct work of God, yes?

Indeed, but read the site, it gives specific things that are in the Bible that were later explained by science. It does not vaguely point the finger at God.

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So itâ€™s the Devilâ€™s fault that you donâ€™t make up your own mind about which religion is correct? How do you know the Devil (great trickster that he is) hasnâ€™t tricked you and all the other Christians into being a Christian, and one of the other religions is the right one?

Because I am satisfied from what I read, in prophecies, that there is no way, on this earth, that someone could have guessed what to write there, that would later transpire to be true..

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â€œLemmingsâ€, please stop, the irony is killing me!

I don't exclude myself from this one. Of course I believed by my parents too. Don't worry I knew what I was writing.

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As for the devil, from a laymans point of view, all he has to do is sit on his arse and not do anything and hes sorted. he doesnl;t need to trick anybody or anything.

He doesn't have to but he knows that he will be cast into the Lake of Fire when the earth ends. So being absolutely evil he takes pleasure in bringing as many as possible with him.

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Also from what i know theres Satan, Lucifer and Hades (hes the gatekeeper, hells bouncer).

Lucifer was the 1st to sin and thus be a fallen angel. He was the light giver.

Satan was the one who started the revolt against god and was thus cast down. he then later tempted eve with the fruit of knowledge (thats the free will). As always a woman fucked it all up! lol

Satan, the Devil, Lucifer are all the same being.

Lucifer started of as a very beautiful angel, he was very powerful, second only to God.
He wanted to overthrow God and become the most powerful. So he gathered angels together in heaven to fight against God.
God being the most powerful, won and created Hell for the Devil (Lucifer) and his angels. Humans were never meant to go there.
As Chris has said, he then temped Eve etc.

Hence â€“ The Devil, being absolutely evil takes pleasure in bringing as many as possible with him.

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that is only if you believe in God & Religion.

I don't so saying we are all born sinful is complete tripe!

Find me someone who does not sin.
Even a young seemingly innocent child can still trick its mother into coming when nothing is wrong.

Level 8 User Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 278

I missed this one:

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So itâ€™s the Devilâ€™s fault that you donâ€™t make up your own mind about which religion is correct?

It isn't his fault, however his is doing his level best to make it as difficult as possible. The fault lies at the feet of the chooser, as it is ultimately their responsibility to complete the task, regardless of the obstacles.

Donâ€™t forget that the Holy Spirit (one of the trinity) is working to help a person do that.

Well, this is what the Bible teaches.

Level 2 User Joined: 25 Oct 2005 Posts: 55

Just saw this thread!

OMG (no puns intended!) - Very good bit of discussion, but it seems like people are missing the point!

Chris is having a hard time, so is ?frustrated/pissed off at life.

Some people do seem to have a hard life for no reason. Life isnt fair <FULLSTOP>

Chris remmeber that you can call on people who you have given favours to from time to time. (That includes me!)

Things can only get better,

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:00 am

stew_punk";p="85749 wrote:

Things can only get better,

Queue the D:Ream intro

Mr Quoter-vator Joined: 16 Feb 2004 Posts: 7405

lol mals

i didnt say the bible teaches ppl to control others i meant it is a means of controlling others...

whats the most effective way to control a person?.....Fear.

Fear is the greatest thing a man can use to control another man or a society.

the bible basically makes you afraid of doing wrong...i.e. it makes you do what it (or the author) wants you to do.

how do you not know that the bible was just written by someone for a bit of fun...a fiction book maybe, just like any other novel...and low and behold think how shocked he would be when he sees what effects this book has had.

if i were the author i would be quite ashamed of how much trouble i had brought to the world with my book that i had written for fun.

Forum Moderator Joined: 18 Feb 2004 Posts: 7432

C'mon though JB, it's a bloody good story!

Mr Quoter-vator Joined: 16 Feb 2004 Posts: 7405

yes, very imaginative! hat off to the man...he certainly made a best seller.

Level 8 User Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 278

Quote:

i didnt say the bible teaches ppl to control others i meant it is a means of controlling others...

To use it as a means for one person to control another is a blatant abuse.
I would stay clear from any denomination that uses it to control people.
Normally places like that do not encourage people to read it for themselves. Rather they exploit peopleâ€™s trust and laziness as an opportunity to spin it is they wish.

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whats the most effective way to control a person?.....Fear.

Fear is the greatest thing a man can use to control another man or a society.

the bible basically makes you afraid of doing wrong...i.e. it makes you do what it (or the author) wants you to do.

As a Christian, I am not afraid of doing wrong. It can, will and does happen.
A more accurate statement would be â€“ â€˜Belief in what the Bible teaches and acceptance of Christianity makes a person not want to do wrongâ€™.
It changes a personâ€™s will, not through force or fear, rather though love, as the person does not want to sin against God. The same as you do not want to hurt the one you love (whoever that may be!).

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how do you not know that the bible was just written by someone for a bit of fun...a fiction book maybe, just like any other novel...and low and behold think how shocked he would be when he sees what effects this book has had.

if i were the author i would be quite ashamed of how much trouble i had brought to the world with my book that i had written for fun.

The Bible was written by many people. These people all had divine inspiration which means that God was writing though them.

Refer to the comments about prophecy as confirmation that it cannot have been written without divine inspiration.

Mr Quoter-vator Joined: 16 Feb 2004 Posts: 7405

are you living your life by the bible?

if so i would say it is controlling you.

Mr Quoter-vator Joined: 16 Feb 2004 Posts: 7405

thing is...like god which cannot be proved...all your responses to our arguements can just be made up.

how do you know that it was written by ppl with divine inspiration...you have just been told that it has...

Level 8 User Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 278

Quote:

are you living your life by the bible?

if so i would say it is controlling you.

I do try.

It only controls me so far as I follow it, we a have free will. â€˜Itâ€™ being what I believe to be Godâ€™s Word, Godâ€™s message to his creation, is this not a worthy thing to follow?

I thought the issue was religion being used for humans to control humans? This is not the case.

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thing is...like god which cannot be proved...all your responses to our arguements can just be made up.

how do you know that it was written by ppl with divine inspiration...you have just been told that it has...

It is not because I canâ€™t find a suitable alternative to creation that I believe that God exists and created us. Itâ€™s because I think it is impossible that it can be any other way.

Check out: http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v12/i1/bombardier.asp

And the main site: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

The replies to all the questions I answered are as close to what the Bible teaches as I understand. So based on the assumption that there was little or no loss or distortion between what was said and what is written in the source, this must mean that the Bible is made up too.

So that means that the all the prophecies are guessed, therefore (quoting from the website I found earlier http://www.av1611.org/amazing.html ):

â€œIn the book, Science Speaks, mathematician and scientist, Peter Stoner, applies the rules of probability to these prophecies. The chances of just eight of these three-hundred prophecies being fulfilled are one in 10 to the 17th power - that's 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000â€

If as Chris said, most of these are common sense, so we write off 252 of them as â€˜could have worked it outâ€™. So the probability of 48 of them coming true is:

1 in 10 to the power of 157 so thatâ€™s:

Ten, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million.... to one.

Given what is on the balance, if you were a betting man, are these good odds to bet on?

To my mind this is satisfactory evidence. It is beyond reasonable doubt. Way way beyond reasonable doubt.

Retroholic Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 3315

religion the vain of the world woo hoo what does it achive?

fook all thas what

Forum Moderator Joined: 18 Feb 2004 Posts: 7432

'vain' of the world? Confused

Thanks for your insightful contribution though.

Forum Moderator Joined: 18 Feb 2004 Posts: 7432

Stephen wrote:

It is not because I canâ€™t find a suitable alternative to creation that I believe that God exists and created us. Itâ€™s because I think it is impossible that it can be any other way.

Check out: http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v12/i1/bombardier.asp

And the main site: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

What you're talking about and providing links for is known as 'Intelligent Design' theory, which is flawed on so very many levels.

Level 8 User Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 278

I talking about creation. In the links I gave I did not see a mention of ID. If there is something in particular that gives rise to this suggestion, it was not my intention to link to it.

My understanding of ID is that, it is a movement that tries to introduce the notion of ID to the scientific community (and schools) as a way to explain the gaps in evolution or an alternative to evolution. The language used to do this is secular, as to detach itself from who the designer may be. (Hands up please!).

As the data cannot be tested, does generate any data to predict anything else, and reveals nothing new about itself, ID has not been embraced by the scientific community.
There are also definition issues surrounding the theory, as to whether or not it has the correct properties to be a scientific theory.

Because of all this Iâ€™m going nowhere near it LOL!

Setting aside how complex things came to exist, I ask the question why anything exists? Where did it come from?

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

had a look here

the bit about black people made me laugh!

Also Soddom and Gomorrah, I don't suppose you have heard the good rev I.M. Jolly speak his bible talks? lol

The marriage one also cracked me up, christian and non christian marry and its bad for the world, any children etc etc and basically morally wrong? Bit much!