Throttle Bodies on an Energy?

Site Subscriber Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 2281

Just wondering what the options are with the 1.4. Must admit RR seems more geared to tackling this issue than RSC!

Must admit until a few months ago I thought I was being held back by this engine due to a lack of parts available, but seeing as how I've learnt that they're actually quite strong engines I'm getting more turned off by the idea of a wild engine conversion when it seems that I've already got an engine that is quite resilient and responsive.

Must admit I've seen a lot of discussion recently on throttle bodies, and unless I've been blind for the last few weeks cannot seem to find a major disadvantage to having them! So, I was just wondering if there would be much work in getting a set to fit my Energy, and what the approximate costs/gains would be and if it would be worth it or not?

The only other thing I would seriously consider is the Volvo 1.7 Turbo conversion since knackered 440's can be gotten hold of quite cheaply. Before this I was quite behind the idea of a 1.4 GT Turbo conversion - the only thing putting me off this is there recent appreciation in price (suppose they're beginning to become classics now!)

My cousin Ian (Howell) also had this to say me a while back, some food for thought must admit;

"Given your 1.4 has little bottom end grunt this could be a sign of high mileage, so a re-bore and seating the valves may give a nice improvement (sharper response). To improve HP at the bottom is a challenge - It's very easy to alter engines to make more top end HP, but if a factory engine doesn't pick up until 4k, it suggests the inlet/ exh ports are too large from the factory. Porting the head will give gains everywhere, but if gas speed is low (due to port size) the increase at the bottom will be marginal. A slight raise in Comp ratio (head skim) will give a proportional gain everywhere of around 3%. A shorter duration inlet cam may give stronger vacuum, and hence better low speed filling, and also, a shorter exh cam will keep the burn in longer, producing more torque. Unfortunately, the cam can easily be created, but unless you know the factory cam spec, we have no reference point from which to start."

All opinions and advice greatly received. I guess my quest to improve power will, as always, have to settle for being a wish as opposed to an imminent reality, since money it what it all boils down to, and being a student means not have much of it. Hopefully once I get out of Uni in a few months and find a decent job then I'll be able to make some real plans and stop wishing!

Just want to be fully clued up now on all the options so I can crack on with things more or less straight away when the time comes.

Cheers again,

Ben

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

firstly the heads respond very well to headwork, the ports are about the right size from the factory but the finish leaves a lot to be desired, the valve seat insert holes were cut with a lampost or something so theres a large step, they respond well to the short turn radius being smoothed out and the bowl area being cleaned up.

Also your cousin saying it appears to not have much bottom end grunt, well its a 1.4 what do you want? It will never have 5 litre V8 amounts of torque at any rpm point.

I have some admitedly not very good pics of the headwork I done on Sonejis old head but they show the work in the bowl area. I can't stick them up at the mo due to a webspace prob (Chets sorting it). The gains are there right through the range like your cousin said when the heads done properly, sonejis engine although it idled rather poorly, surged a lot and very quickly (but it shifted) but it pulled form idle to redline very quickly. On the blue energy E6J when I done the headwork the car barely ran properly, but simply adjusting the mixture brough the speed and stability back and a result was the emmisions were lower but it pulled very well. hauled Soneji, Rustyarchs and I back up from blackpool at the good side of 120, highest it ever got was about 6500rpm in 5th which is 130ish.

To see what sort of nick your bottom end is get a compresion test done on it, then a leak down test and see what the results are.

When I swapped the head on the blue primas engine I used the old red cars valve springs, this was alater head and they floated much earlier, 7500rpm was the limit due to valve float whereas the original valve springs allowed over 8grand.

Not much was gained revving that high due to the restricitve inlet but basically rev limits are not really a problem with the engine.

The engines are alos not the in tolerence accuracy so building it properly and making sure its all as it should be will yield good gains.

The 3 box exhaust is a restriction, convertign to a 2 box system brings about improvments in not only revving but urge as well.

The stock air box is far superior to an induction cone btw so retain that, you can mod it so you get more noise but speed improvements are little.

As for TB's its not really worth the effort, yes you will get power, yes you will get economy and easy starting but you will still not be at 16V power and you have spent a grand getting there.

The 1.7 turbo engine is very good as a boat anchor, thats about the best that can be said about it.

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

heres the energy head removed, as you can see 1 cyls valves are out

here it is after a quick bit of porting, not quite finished look at the bowl area in it compared to the 1st pic

chambers and valves cleaned up

another pic halfway through proting and before the head face was cleaned up

Site Subscriber Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 2281

Nice pics Chris. Do you really feel a difference when that's all done?

How skilled a job is it, I mean is it something I could give a go?

Oh and may be a dumb question but what's that small threaded hole in between the two valves?

Cheers for the advice.

Site Subscriber Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 2281

Oh so you're not a big fan of the 1.7 Turbo, well if you were in my position what would you do for more power (apart from another car)?

F7P transplant?

Mr Quoter-vator Joined: 16 Feb 2004 Posts: 7405

Gentle Ben wrote:

...Oh and may be a dumb question but what's that small threaded hole in between the two valves?...

are ya kidding Very Happy

its for the spark plug

Site Subscriber Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 2281

Oh yeah, schoolboy error!

Retroholic Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 5685

lol can't see the wood for the trees Wink

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

"What water?"
"we are in the sea, man!"

lol

BTW the pics don't show the ports etc cos I plonked the head on the scanner! lol

Yes it makes a very noticeable difference to performance. Sonejis clio was easily the quickest 1.4 I have ever driven. He kept up with a clio 16V no bother tanked a pug S16 up a hill, we got a better start but hey and he used to pushing my old saab 9000 2litre 16V along at 120 ish.

Wait for Soneji to appear and he'll tell you the tales and make me look like a true magic worker (I sooo under charged him for the gains).

It was the most dramatic performance change from headwork alone I have seen.

The carbed versions do gain as well, like I said before mine needed a few turns on the mixture screw to richen it up enough to allow it to run.

You could give it a go but if you arse it up then power will be LESS than before.

F7P transplant is the best/easiest way to power, depending on how knackered your current engine is you may get double the current power with a good 16V lump. But the 1.4 GTT can go in, the 2litre can go in, the 2 litre 8 valve can go in, as can the new 1.6's etc .

The energy is a good engine, no mistake. Its a solid dependable unit that can make big power if you spend the money on it.

Its main problem is the rockers tbh. They can wear quite a lot, the other main prob is the price of the cams and rockers, they are all seperate and you can't get them as a kit. Cams 200 ish, rockers are 45 each and so on.

However there are scrappies full of energy engine cars and the clios are normally the best source so you can get a whole new lump or just the head from them.

Forum Moderator Joined: 16 Feb 2004 Posts: 1356

Yip. Car had a lumpy idle which we could never sort, not convinced it was the headwork as Chris didnâ€™t do that much work to constitute a Rallye-esk idle.

Moving from Super 4â€™s to NGK made a difference but never sorted it out.

Very rapid wee Clio I had, would bounce off the limiter in every gear except 5th (only 100rpm off). Think the new top speed was around 125mph ish. Easily kept up with 9000 16v 2.0, and lots of other cars (mainly beamers), gave a clio valver a bloody good run for his money just outside Edinburgh. Bottom end on the lump was a good un, made for a good combination. I was going to put the lump in my then new GTS-X but ended up selling it to someone on CS. The work was helped by the general good condition of the head, cam was in perfect condition etc.

Only thing was the increase in power/torque raped the clutch and within three weeks it finally gave up the ghost.

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

lol yeah the clutch was fecked and I was the one who had to drive it whilst you drove in the new gts-x!

That was fun!

Forum Moderator Joined: 16 Feb 2004 Posts: 1356

It was when I was on the M8 driving along and me wee brain couldn't work out why when I gassed it the revs would bounce off the limiter but the car would barely move.... just as I though hmmmmm clutch you phoned about the GTS-X! Good bloomin timin, wish I had just replaced the clutch on the Clio though

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

suppose. But the clio needed a lot of work matey and the gts-x was a good car, you just knackered it.

Forum Moderator Joined: 16 Feb 2004 Posts: 1356

Not at all, it was stinking inside had shagged shockers, oil burning lump, dodgy exhaust and all the mounts were on their last legs lol

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

if was fine until you buggered it.

Forum Moderator Joined: 16 Feb 2004 Posts: 1356

Aye aye. Remember taking your sister and the Gangsta into town for some night off, I was just droppin them off.... Gangsta gets in the back and starts pointing at all the stains on the rear bench asking whats that!! lol Dressed in black and got covered in shit from me GTS-X Very Happy

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

lol you should see her these days, she not only owns the bueaty parlour but shes now managing director of the company she works for. Poor her eh!

Her mercs fecked, been dead for weeks now, I said I'll fix it gave her a price but shes to stingy to pay it, so I'll get the car off her for 300 quid in a few months.

Site Subscriber Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 2281

Probably best leave work to someone who knows what they're doing then! Or at least get a head from a scrappy and have a bit of a play. How much you reckon a scrappy would charge for one out of interest?

Will get the engine tested to see what nick it's in and take things from there.

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

Aye, I'll do it if you send me a head. Or I have a spare head which I can do for you if you really want.

Scrappy, depends one might want a fiver the next 50 quid.

Site Subscriber Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 2281

How much would you want to do a pukka job Chris?

Forum Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 19978

Depends on how pukka you want really.

Â£150 upwards for the energy head, like I said depends on what ye want. Most people are happy to retain the original valves if they are ok and just cleaned, same with the valve seats, if the old valves still match fine then no point in getting them recut same with guides etc. All saves cash